E FIRM OR A FIRM FOR A 1ST JOB

[architech]

Many have asked me about working for an engineering firm that has architects as a supporting department versus working for a true architectural firm.

How do you architects feel about this for a 1st job (working in an engineering firm)?

Personally ....
I worked for a drafting bureau 1st ... to learn AutoCAD and MicroStation.
While working there, I had many opportunities to look into many architectural firms and see the "not so fair" culture .... so to say. Not to mention to low cost of pay.

I then accidently saw the culture in an engineering firm w/ a small support of architects. BIG difference. :shock:

The pay is 3 times that of an architectural firm and the culture is much better for the junior architects. Although once within the glass walls on the arch department .... some of the old architects do try to haze the young ones.

It must be from all those years in the real trenches.... http://www.cadchat.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/dizzy.gif

[TCARPENTER]

Hi architech,

This a really interesting topic you bring up. I'm a mechanical designer, product, sheet metal, factory layouts, office layouts, and tooling. Out of all the things I've done, I always thought the Architectural stuff was the most fun (although the sheet metal and the tooling were a fun challenge) I actually started back to school for an Architectural degree (I have a two year degree in CAD/Mechanical design - but I may as well not even have it.) I got one class under my belt and ran out of money so I haven't had a chance to go back.

Don't get me wrong I've got big shoulders and can take just about anything but I'm curious if you could elaborate on "abuses", exactly what happens? I'm also a little curious if your post was written under some duress - I don't think I've ever seen a post from you with as many spelling/grammatical mistakes as this last one?

Hope I didn't offend, but I am curious.
Todd

[architech]

Hey Todd,
Thanks for the heads up on the grammar issue. :wink:

No duress here although, my typos do occur from rushing from web site to web site. :oops:


I’ve edited my post and changed the word “abusive” to “not so fair” ….
Abusive seems so strong.

Hmmm….
Where does one begin with these old timers’ attitudes found in these architectural cultures?

Before I start, this is my point of view from my own experience.

It would seem that the old timers in my travels resent the CAD designers in their departments. It’s as if the CAD designers make too much money for their age. And they haven’t suffered enough as they did when they where coming up in their career.

Back then (as I’m told) draftsmen were picked up off the street. And they were taught the “craft” through experience. The more experience or the licensed architects would give the “trainees” a hard time from time to time. (Just as they do today.)

(Here’s a small list)
Quick snaps. Almost like the “Exorcists”. 1 minute good next second bad.
Your personal time doesn’t count but theirs does.
Sometimes, some will expect you to drop things off at their home.
Personally projects not company related, if picked, are expected to be done free or half your time won’t be paid for.
Promotions held over your head, if and only if, you kiss all the old timer’s butts.
Constantly be the butt of a joke and not flip one back at them, cause that’s being insubordinate.
Always help them remember what they have to do and make sure their tasks are before yours and then you can stay late to finish your stuff. And by the way don’t charge all of that time.
Constantly hovering for you to finish because they miss calculated on a deadline or better yet they forgot but won’t say that …..


Some of the above I’ve gone through myself and the other stuff I’ve seen being done to the younger ones.

Now a days, the old timers rarely come my way, mostly because I call their bluffs and I don’t give sh** if I get fired. My attitude is, I can find another job even if it meant taking someone else’s job. I can just take a CAD test and work my way up again. I’ve been, also, known to pick up and go home in the middle of a job, if I’m being pissed off. (I usually come back after hours and finish the job without the project architect assigned to the job.) In an engineering firm, you can do that but try that in an arch firm and you’ll find yourself on the curb.

Anyway ….
The above is just a small window into the architectural culture. I’m sure many go through some of these but it sometimes seems like it’s always happening to someone, not necessarily the same person but the same BS. It’s just a different day and a different target.

[csiarch]

Well boys and girls, I simply MUST jump into this thread. :lol:

I've been working at various levels in the architectural field since 1965 so I'm probably considered one of the dreaded "old-timers". :x

I've also had the privilege of working as an architect in an EA firm and it was one of the best experiences I ever had. The pay was decent but more importantly, the engineers RESPECTED me as a professional.

One reason they accorded me respect was because I was always willing to listen to the engineer's viewpoints on project design and they, in turn, listened to mine. Along the way, during the development of a project, everyone's concerns were addressed, coordination was effected and the project got designed and built with a minimum of hassle.

My recollections of working with "fellow" architects are similar to some of those mentioned in this thread. To better understand the architectural psyche, you have to ask yourself: "Why does a person aspire to be an architect in the first place?"

Many architects are dreamers. They dream of designing edifices that everyone will admire who in turn, seek out the designer to design their project. The reality of these dreamers is to build monuments to themselves that someone else pays for. If they are successful (and even if they're not) the ego is pumped up and they fancy themselves as a special class of folks a level or two above the crowd (which includes all other architects and engineers).

Part of the fabric that makes up this group is an on-going, nagging feeling of insecurity. To make themselves feel better, they must make others around them feel less competent and less talented. They dump on junior architects, find fault with and mistrust engineers, and make unreasonable demands on everyone to constantly call attention to the fact that they're the most important person around. In a (small) defense of architects, I have run across a few engineers who are the same way but percentage-wise, their numbers are miniscule.

Other architects (like me) are more practical and as a result, the "gee whiz" designs suffer. But we have the satisfaction of knowing that the Owner got his money's worth and all the systems work, the roof doesn't leak and the basement is dry all the time.

I've had practical experience in designing electrical and plumbing systems in my experience, and in doing so, had to put on a "different hat". Once you do that, you gain an appreciation of the trials an engineer must go through working with a designer who is absolutley certain that the only reason the engineer asks for a chase to run ductwork or piping is to ruin the designer's grand concepts. :roll:

Although they won't admit it, many architectural schools impress on their students the fact that the architect is always the "leader" of the team (this is an especially difficult concept for some architects working for EA firms to grasp). Naturally, when these visonaries graduate, they expect everyone to cow-tow to them because that's the way they were trained.

The only solution I can think of which might diminish this age-old battle of egos and posturing is to enact a Federal law requiring that architects spend at least six months working as a draftsman in every engineering discipline AND that every engineer be required to perform a equally long tour of duty drafting architectural plans. :wink:

Ain't gonna happen but everyone would be more productive if it did. :D

Guess if it were me starting over, I'd opt for being an architect-engineer (or engineer-architect). Better class of people to associate with......

[architech]

Good post csiarch http://www.cadchat.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

I agree completely with everything you said.
The only thing that's wrong ... is you considering yourself to be one of the bad guys .... :evil:

You can't be with statements like that ....

In the end the engineers do respect the architects here and at other places that I've visited (AE firms). I'm not saying that the engineers don't have their share of egos ... Theirs just isn’t as flamboyant as the architects.

I guess this why I know I’ll always aim for an “EA” firm over an “A” firm. Besides, I think an “A” firm wouldn’t appreciate my frequent visits to the web on forums like this …

:roll:

Later guys.

[csiarch]

Thanks, architech. Got all that off my chest for a while...... :lol:

The issue I run into these days is the one of "doing it right" or "doing it fast". I prefer to do it right the first time but that takes longer so I get dumped on for being slow. :(

I sense that many younger, inexperienced users use speed as the measure of performance instead of accuracy. When asked how long I think it will take to complete something, the typical reaction is: "Really? I could do that in ______the time. (Fill in the blank)." My unspoken reply is:

1. Why did you ask me?

2. If you're so fast, why don't you do it yourself? (Answer: I don't want to do that!) :x

The other issue I run into more and more is the age gap. Even though I have been putting buildings together for a long time, some look at me and simply see an old guy who's on his way out. Make way for the new breed of know-it-alls, all of whom are certain that they dwell at the center of the universe.

I long ago ceased trying to advise them of pitfalls in designing and detailing. They are quite certain that every object they create in a cad drawing is an original work of art. Now, I let them go on their merry way, fat dumb and happy.

The solution these self-annointed wise men resort to if they can't figure out how to detail something is to draw some vague object (or leave it out altogether) and when questioned, they reply with "....letting the Contractor work it out in the field..." They have forgotten the basic role (if they ever knew it) of the designer is to design the building; the basic role of the Contractor is to build it.

BUT, if they fail to design it and leave it up to the contractor, he will build something. THEN they complain because it wasn't built the way thy wanted it. :evil:

Like I said before, it ain't gonna be solved in this milennia! That's why it's been easy for me to slowly back out of architecture ....and relax. :lol:

Cheers, and carry on!

[TCARPENTER]

Thanks for all the input guys, now I know to search for an A/E firm if and when I ever get my degree under my belt.

csiarch, many years ago I worked for one of the big three (probably shouldn't mention whcih one - since I know work for one of their competitors) but many years ago they forced many of the "wiser" crowd into retirement because the CAD jocks thought they could do it faster and better. I had the opportunity to work with many of the "wiser" folks who after being forced to retire - were brought back on contract to the tune of a six figure income (on a part time basis). I have to admit, this was one happy contractor. Nothing seemed to rattle him and he knew the answer to every question the younins' threw his way - I learned more in the 3 months I worked with him than I did in my 5 years before this. The lesson learned for this automaker was in where the company's database resided - and it ain't in any CAD package. The one I'm working for now is just about to make that same mistake - it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but take heart - your skills and knowlege will eventually be recognized - just make sure they pay as well they paid the fellow I had the opportunity to work with. By the way, he showed me his pay stub - the six figure income was no lie!

Todd

[csiarch]

Todd and architech: Thanks for the encouragement. :lol:

I can deal with it because I know what I know and that is enough in my mind.

I remain optimistic about things and that keeps me from getting discouraged and worse yet, getting depressed which is a killer! :twisted:

I changed my focus from butting my head doing cadd drawings for people who didn't appreciate my efforts to writing code for shape font files. It's a therapy that I enjoy and it's an outlet for my creative juices. Some of my results are on this site and more on CADDEPOT.COM. My revision of archstyl.shx has been downloaded more than 2K times. Someone must like it.

Speaking on shx fonts, I'm not certain of this but as later versions of autocad are released, I sense that fewer of the old favorite shx fonts will work under the new programs since the older ones are still coded in the old decimal format. So, I'm changing some of them (like archstyl and archisel) to UNIFONT in hopes that they will remain compatible with newer versions of AutoCad.

Cheers! :lol: and thanks for the kind words, folks! :D

[VERYCIVILDRAFTER]

I sense that many younger, inexperienced users use speed as the measure of performance instead of accuracy

I wish I had a doller for everytime I've seen heads butt on this subject.

Oddly enough, I'm not going to start an argument about accuracy vs. speed.

To the younger generations I'd just like to say;
Shut up for a second, listen, and try and learn something. Drop the snotty attitude, you don't know everything. Your seniors have probably 'been there and done that', and some want to pass on that knowledge. Know what your 'place' is, but know when it's time to change 'places'. No, you shouldn't be treated like dirt just because you’re new.


To the older generations I'd like to say;
If they don't have experience in what they're doing, why do you expect them to know what they're doing? There's energy and sprit in your minors that should be cultivated. Drop the almighty attitude, because you don't know everything, still. Learn how to properly put people in their place, it’s going to be different for every person. Please keep learning, because new ideas combined with past experiences are a phenomenally powerful tool. Yes, you are still a very valuable asset.


To myself, I'd like to say;
You should shut up now and stop acting like you know everything. :roll:

[Eddie]

8) Here Here VCD....very well said :P

[csiarch]

VCD: You've addressed both the "younger" generation and "older" generation with uncharacteristic eloquence. Nice words.....next thing you know, you'll be writing construction specifications! :shock:

Now, you have to ask yourself: "Which generation are YOU part of?"

You see, it's all relative. No matter what age you are now, you're either part of one generation or the other, depending on who's doing the viewing. How's that for being cerebral? :wink:

I think the trick is to not classify yourself as either. Let someone else make that decision. No need to deal with those snotty young know-it-alls; in a few years they'll be older and get their comeuppance from another wave of snotty young know-it-alls. Only then will they understand what the issues were.....but by then, it'll be too late to change their ways! :P

You can only gain this 20-20 hindsight after you get older! It's been this way ever since the first person drew a plan on animal skins with charcoal -and someone else criticized it! 8)

On another topic, anyone have a use for an shx Courier look-alike? :)